>>Although it's not in the subject (which is NWN), I suggest you try games
>>like "Fallout" and give your impressions about it. In Fallout there is
>>"roleplay" like I would like to see more.
>
> Very, very good game (Fallout 2... Never played the first one. Really
> should, since I have it). Loved the story and the open-ended nature of the
> gameplay. Probably one of my all-time favourites, along with Torment,
> Morrowind and BG2. But they're not roleplaying.

Yech, I guess we'll have to discuss about what IS roleplaying =)

> Keeping on topic... The spiders are tough. You might want to reload from a
> previous save and level up a couple times (if you can) before tackling them.

Personnaly, always killed them in one-time (Don't like using the recall,
feels coward) but I admit, using all buff imaginable and spending a
great amount of money on potions.

> Mage: The Ascension (or anything else by White Wolf)

Well, don't know the background - But I don't like the rules.

> D&D (I play 3.5 these days, but used to be hardcore into 2nd edition in
> highschool, much to the detriment of my social life)

Ah ah ah ... Paper roleplaying is the enemy of real life ... 3.5 spells
are extemely weakened ... We use 3.5 - 3.0 rules depending on which is
more interesting.

> Rolemaster (good if you like endless charts)

No I dont !
Besides I like a fight which is ridden of in less than 2 hours of real play.

> Cyberpunk 2020 (if it's even around anymore)

All I ever seen about it is the front image of the basic rule book.

Kelakhai

PS : Much things discussed here should be part of a NG which would talk
of RPG, in paper AND video games. Does anyone knows is this kind of NG
already exists ?

"Kelakhai" <kelakhai DeleteThis @free.fr> wrote in message
news:43d0b8d1$0$2262$626a54ce@news.free.fr...

> Yech, I guess we'll have to discuss about what IS roleplaying =)

Like you said, there's got to be a newsgroup that's more appropriate for the
topic...

> Personnaly, always killed them in one-time (Don't like using the recall,
> feels coward) but I admit, using all buff imaginable and spending a great
> amount of money on potions.

See? There's better things to spend your hard-earned (or easily found) gold
on. Like 35,000GP greatswords, for example. Besides... There's a certain
honour in fleeing and living to fight another day, especially if it means
totally crushing the oponent who made you flee in the first place.

>> Rolemaster (good if you like endless charts)
>
> No I dont !
> Besides I like a fight which is ridden of in less than 2 hours of real
> play.

I Played the game a few times... We had many 4-hour sessions where all we
did was slog through a single encounter. Interesting system, really
detailed... Some great settings... But it needed to be severely
streamlined...

"Ooooooh! Critical hit! Let's see... You decapitate your opponent. With
a TOOTHPICK!!!"

"Kelakhai" <kelakhai.RemoveThis@free.fr> wrote in message
news:43d0b8d1$0$2262$626a54ce@news.free.fr...

> Yech, I guess we'll have to discuss about what IS roleplaying =)

Like you said, there's got to be a newsgroup that's more appropriate for the
topic...

> Personnaly, always killed them in one-time (Don't like using the recall,
> feels coward) but I admit, using all buff imaginable and spending a great
> amount of money on potions.

See? There's better things to spend your hard-earned (or easily found) gold
on. Like 35,000GP greatswords, for example. Besides... There's a certain
honour in fleeing and living to fight another day, especially if it means
totally crushing the oponent who made you flee in the first place.

>> Rolemaster (good if you like endless charts)
>
> No I dont !
> Besides I like a fight which is ridden of in less than 2 hours of real
> play.

I Played the game a few times... We had many 4-hour sessions where all we
did was slog through a single encounter. Interesting system, really
detailed... Some great settings... But it needed to be severely
streamlined...

"Ooooooh! Critical hit! Let's see... You decapitate your opponent. With
a TOOTHPICK!!!"

"Kharsis" <kharsis.DeleteThis@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:dqpue7$50d$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...

> Kharsis

Isn't Kharsis the guy who brought the entire Netheril Empire screaming to
the ground in a narcisstic bid for immortality, or something like that?
Should we really be talking to you?

Kelakhai wrote:
SNIP
>
> I have heard Temple of elemental evil was superb. But I know no more, a
> friend of mine has it, maybe I should borrow it to see what it's like.
>

> Kelakhai


Temple of Elemental Evil was incredibly bug ridden on release and caused
lock ups on a lot of machines. I haven't played it since the last patch
came out so am unsure what has been done to improve it.

The designers did play fast and loose withnthe PnP module on which it is
based and obviuosly never read the description of Zuggtomoy.

Kharsis

"Kharsis" <kharsis DeleteThis @ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:dqpue7$50d$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...

> Kharsis

Isn't Kharsis the guy who brought the entire Netheril Empire screaming to
the ground in a narcisstic bid for immortality, or something like that?
Should we really be talking to you?

Kelakhai wrote:
SNIP
>
> I have heard Temple of elemental evil was superb. But I know no more, a
> friend of mine has it, maybe I should borrow it to see what it's like.
>

> Kelakhai


Temple of Elemental Evil was incredibly bug ridden on release and caused
lock ups on a lot of machines. I haven't played it since the last patch
came out so am unsure what has been done to improve it.

The designers did play fast and loose withnthe PnP module on which it is
based and obviuosly never read the description of Zuggtomoy.

Kharsis

> SNIP
> >
> > I have heard Temple of elemental evil was superb. But I know no more, a
> > friend of mine has it, maybe I should borrow it to see what it's like.
> >
>
> > Kelakhai
>
>
> Temple of Elemental Evil was incredibly bug ridden on release and caused
> lock ups on a lot of machines. I haven't played it since the last patch
> came out so am unsure what has been done to improve it.
>
> The designers did play fast and loose withnthe PnP module on which it is
> based and obviuosly never read the description of Zuggtomoy.
>
> Kharsis

The patches from http://www.co8.org/forum/ fix the worst of the bugs in
Temple of Elemental Evil. I've been enjoying it a lot, it's the most
faithful implementation of the PnP rules I know of.

Richard.

> SNIP
> >
> > I have heard Temple of elemental evil was superb. But I know no more, a
> > friend of mine has it, maybe I should borrow it to see what it's like.
> >
>
> > Kelakhai
>
>
> Temple of Elemental Evil was incredibly bug ridden on release and caused
> lock ups on a lot of machines. I haven't played it since the last patch
> came out so am unsure what has been done to improve it.
>
> The designers did play fast and loose withnthe PnP module on which it is
> based and obviuosly never read the description of Zuggtomoy.
>
> Kharsis

The patches from http://www.co8.org/forum/ fix the worst of the bugs in
Temple of Elemental Evil. I've been enjoying it a lot, it's the most
faithful implementation of the PnP rules I know of.

Richard.

Paul in Toronto wrote:
> "Kharsis" wrote:
> > Kharsis
>
> Isn't Kharsis the guy who brought the entire Netheril Empire screaming to
> the ground in a narcisstic bid for immortality, or something like that?
> Should we really be talking to you?

If the fella brough down the Netheril Empire, we probably should at
least *listen* to what he says =)

Hey, if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have a Shadows of Undrentide...

Paul in Toronto wrote:
> "Kharsis" wrote:
> > Kharsis
>
> Isn't Kharsis the guy who brought the entire Netheril Empire screaming to
> the ground in a narcisstic bid for immortality, or something like that?
> Should we really be talking to you?

If the fella brough down the Netheril Empire, we probably should at
least *listen* to what he says =)

Hey, if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have a Shadows of Undrentide...

Paul in Toronto wrote:
> "Kharsis" <kharsis DeleteThis @ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:dqpue7$50d$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
>
>>Kharsis
>
>
> Isn't Kharsis the guy who brought the entire Netheril Empire screaming to
> the ground in a narcisstic bid for immortality, or something like that?
> Should we really be talking to you?
>
>
I was? Neat =)

Just a name of a character I had a lot of fun playing in a pen and paper
game called SLA.

Kharsis

Paul in Toronto wrote:
> "Kharsis" <kharsis.RemoveThis@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:dqpue7$50d$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
>
>>Kharsis
>
>
> Isn't Kharsis the guy who brought the entire Netheril Empire screaming to
> the ground in a narcisstic bid for immortality, or something like that?
> Should we really be talking to you?
>
>
I was? Neat =)

Just a name of a character I had a lot of fun playing in a pen and paper
game called SLA.

Kharsis

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:44:27 -0500, Paul in Toronto
<swampyfern.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Kelakhai" <kelakhai.RemoveThis@free.fr> wrote in message
> news:43ce9811$0$5067$626a14ce@news.free.fr...

> > I would have enjoyed more roleplay and less fights with the real XP ...

> How exactly do you "roleplay" in a game with a point-and-click
> interface? Picking dialogue options from a menu isn't
> "roleplaying." Neither is completing quests with only a handful of
> possible outcomes. If you're going to play CRPGs, you need to
> accept the limitations of the system and go from there. These
> games are perfectly designed for bashing monsters, but that's about
> it. That's really what they're geared toward.

Perhaps Kelakhai meant more story-type interaction, I don't know.
Anyway, what you say is more or less true for single-player games--but
wasn't part of the point of Neverwinter Nights that you could use a
live DM to control the game so you actually *do* get a roleplay
experience?

> They're not designed for thinking outside the box, which is what
> real roleplaying requires. Sometimes, the box explodes. CRPGs
> aren't set up to handle exploding boxes.

But NWN is, when it has a live GM in it. The example I remember
hearing from long ago was if you were fighting vampires in a tavern,
you could say to the GM, "I'm going to smash this table to use its leg
as a wooden stake," and do so, and when the table was smashed, the GM
could create and drop the stake object for you to pick up and use.

> They're nicely contained, sterile, predictable little packages
> which are virtually identical (no, randomly generated dungeons a la
> Diablo 2 or Daggerfall do not count as being "different") each time
> you play them. You can't refuse to do the main quest in NWN, then
> go off to the Silvery Marches looking for kobolds, dragons and true
> love (not necessarily together) instead.

But you could if you had a DM running it who was good enough to create
plots on the fly.

> There is no roleplaying in CRPGs. None whatsoever. Nada. Zilch.
> If you really look at it, there's about as much "roleplaying" in
> BG2 or NWN as there is in Diablo 2. Note that pre-recorded
> dialogue and clicking through "conversation" options do not a
> roleplaying experience make.

But there actually can be roleplaying in multi-player games, even when
there isn't a GM. All it takes is for you to act and speak in
character. I belong to the RP Congress, a roleplaying/writing group
based in the City of Heroes MMORPG--and we roleplay together all the
time. Some of it requires a little bending or even outright ignoring
of what we see in the game, but it's all great fun. Our website is
http://www.rpcongress.com if anyone cares. =)

All "roleplaying" takes in *any* setting is more than one person and a
willingness to improvise.

--
Chris Meadows aka | Homepage: http://www.terrania.us
Robotech_Master |
robotech.RemoveThis-AT-eyrie.org | Earn a free iPod and a free Mac Mini!
| http://www.terrania.us/conga.html

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:44:27 -0500, Paul in Toronto
<swampyfern.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Kelakhai" <kelakhai.TakeThisOut@free.fr> wrote in message
> news:43ce9811$0$5067$626a14ce@news.free.fr...

> > I would have enjoyed more roleplay and less fights with the real XP ...

> How exactly do you "roleplay" in a game with a point-and-click
> interface? Picking dialogue options from a menu isn't
> "roleplaying." Neither is completing quests with only a handful of
> possible outcomes. If you're going to play CRPGs, you need to
> accept the limitations of the system and go from there. These
> games are perfectly designed for bashing monsters, but that's about
> it. That's really what they're geared toward.

Perhaps Kelakhai meant more story-type interaction, I don't know.
Anyway, what you say is more or less true for single-player games--but
wasn't part of the point of Neverwinter Nights that you could use a
live DM to control the game so you actually *do* get a roleplay
experience?

> They're not designed for thinking outside the box, which is what
> real roleplaying requires. Sometimes, the box explodes. CRPGs
> aren't set up to handle exploding boxes.

But NWN is, when it has a live GM in it. The example I remember
hearing from long ago was if you were fighting vampires in a tavern,
you could say to the GM, "I'm going to smash this table to use its leg
as a wooden stake," and do so, and when the table was smashed, the GM
could create and drop the stake object for you to pick up and use.

> They're nicely contained, sterile, predictable little packages
> which are virtually identical (no, randomly generated dungeons a la
> Diablo 2 or Daggerfall do not count as being "different") each time
> you play them. You can't refuse to do the main quest in NWN, then
> go off to the Silvery Marches looking for kobolds, dragons and true
> love (not necessarily together) instead.

But you could if you had a DM running it who was good enough to create
plots on the fly.

> There is no roleplaying in CRPGs. None whatsoever. Nada. Zilch.
> If you really look at it, there's about as much "roleplaying" in
> BG2 or NWN as there is in Diablo 2. Note that pre-recorded
> dialogue and clicking through "conversation" options do not a
> roleplaying experience make.

But there actually can be roleplaying in multi-player games, even when
there isn't a GM. All it takes is for you to act and speak in
character. I belong to the RP Congress, a roleplaying/writing group
based in the City of Heroes MMORPG--and we roleplay together all the
time. Some of it requires a little bending or even outright ignoring
of what we see in the game, but it's all great fun. Our website is
http://www.rpcongress.com if anyone cares. =)

All "roleplaying" takes in *any* setting is more than one person and a
willingness to improvise.

--
Chris Meadows aka | Homepage: http://www.terrania.us
Robotech_Master |
robotech.TakeThisOut-AT-eyrie.org | Earn a free iPod and a free Mac Mini!
| http://www.terrania.us/conga.html