Xocyll wrote:
> Yes, writing some little VB game or app you'd be coding everything like
> that, but in a game like NWN, you'd have all that stuff in a database.


Or, in NWN/NWN2's case, a 2da file, which is a simple 2D text table (2D
Array = 2da). The design is flexible enough that modders can easily
modify existing feats and even add/delete feats.
--
Barry Scott Will
PapaGamer.com
own the game

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:34:30 -0400, Barry Scott Will
<barryREMOVE DeleteThis @papagamer.com> wrote:

>Xocyll wrote:
>> Yes, writing some little VB game or app you'd be coding everything like
>> that, but in a game like NWN, you'd have all that stuff in a database.
>
>
>Or, in NWN/NWN2's case, a 2da file, which is a simple 2D text table (2D
>Array = 2da). The design is flexible enough that modders can easily
>modify existing feats and even add/delete feats.

And in the levels and rulebase examples, how much difference can there be
between NWN and NWN2. I suspect that a lot of the work has already been done
and could be ported across to the new game. Sure the graphics etc. are
different but details of spells, levels, abilities etc. are as you say,
probably in a table.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:34:30 -0400, Barry Scott Will
<barryREMOVE.DeleteThis@papagamer.com> wrote:

>Xocyll wrote:
>> Yes, writing some little VB game or app you'd be coding everything like
>> that, but in a game like NWN, you'd have all that stuff in a database.
>
>
>Or, in NWN/NWN2's case, a 2da file, which is a simple 2D text table (2D
>Array = 2da). The design is flexible enough that modders can easily
>modify existing feats and even add/delete feats.

And in the levels and rulebase examples, how much difference can there be
between NWN and NWN2. I suspect that a lot of the work has already been done
and could be ported across to the new game. Sure the graphics etc. are
different but details of spells, levels, abilities etc. are as you say,
probably in a table.

On 4 Oct 2006 18:19:43 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Memnoch wrote:
>> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Memnoch wrote:
>> >> Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
>> >
>> >So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
>> >suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
>> >to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
>> >at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
>> >them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
>> >person you are.
>>
>> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
>> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
>> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave the
>> expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes with
>> the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff from
>> scratch.
>
>Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue about what goes into
>producing a game. It takes time and effort to add more content, and
>you don't want to pay for that content, it's that simple. You think
>you should get things for free without paying for the time and effort
>it takes to bring those things to you. You are selfish and almost
>criminally uninformed.

I was referring to the levels, spells etc. The work is already done with the
first game. How can you not see that. I'm not referring to new tilesets,
campaigns, voice acting or other graphics that would need to be created from
scratch. How hard can it be for them to allow you to level to 40 instead of
20?

On 4 Oct 2006 18:19:43 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Memnoch wrote:
>> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Memnoch wrote:
>> >> Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
>> >
>> >So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
>> >suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
>> >to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
>> >at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
>> >them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
>> >person you are.
>>
>> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
>> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
>> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave the
>> expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes with
>> the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff from
>> scratch.
>
>Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue about what goes into
>producing a game. It takes time and effort to add more content, and
>you don't want to pay for that content, it's that simple. You think
>you should get things for free without paying for the time and effort
>it takes to bring those things to you. You are selfish and almost
>criminally uninformed.

I was referring to the levels, spells etc. The work is already done with the
first game. How can you not see that. I'm not referring to new tilesets,
campaigns, voice acting or other graphics that would need to be created from
scratch. How hard can it be for them to allow you to level to 40 instead of
20?

Memnoch formulated on Thursday :
> On 4 Oct 2006 18:19:43 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Memnoch wrote:
>>> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Memnoch wrote:
>>>>> Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
>>>>
>>>> So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
>>>> suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
>>>> to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
>>>> at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
>>>> them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
>>>> person you are.
>>>
>>> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
>>> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
>>> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave
>>> the expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes
>>> with the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff
>>> from scratch.
>>
>> Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue about what goes into
>> producing a game. It takes time and effort to add more content, and
>> you don't want to pay for that content, it's that simple. You think
>> you should get things for free without paying for the time and effort
>> it takes to bring those things to you. You are selfish and almost
>> criminally uninformed.
>
> I was referring to the levels, spells etc. The work is already done with the
> first game. How can you not see that. I'm not referring to new tilesets,
> campaigns, voice acting or other graphics that would need to be created from
> scratch. How hard can it be for them to allow you to level to 40 instead of
> 20?

Why does it matter what the level cap is? Everything will be scaled to
the cap anyways. Besides, playing low level PCs can be fun. I'm fairly
sure epic+ levels will be coded in later expansions. It's all good.

--


Regards,

DS

------ Don't worry about avoiding temptation . as you grow older, it
will avoid you.
-- Winston Churchill

Memnoch formulated on Thursday :
> On 4 Oct 2006 18:19:43 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Memnoch wrote:
>>> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Memnoch wrote:
>>>>> Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
>>>>
>>>> So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
>>>> suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
>>>> to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
>>>> at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
>>>> them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
>>>> person you are.
>>>
>>> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
>>> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
>>> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave
>>> the expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes
>>> with the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff
>>> from scratch.
>>
>> Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue about what goes into
>> producing a game. It takes time and effort to add more content, and
>> you don't want to pay for that content, it's that simple. You think
>> you should get things for free without paying for the time and effort
>> it takes to bring those things to you. You are selfish and almost
>> criminally uninformed.
>
> I was referring to the levels, spells etc. The work is already done with the
> first game. How can you not see that. I'm not referring to new tilesets,
> campaigns, voice acting or other graphics that would need to be created from
> scratch. How hard can it be for them to allow you to level to 40 instead of
> 20?

Why does it matter what the level cap is? Everything will be scaled to
the cap anyways. Besides, playing low level PCs can be fun. I'm fairly
sure epic+ levels will be coded in later expansions. It's all good.

--


Regards,

DS

------ Don't worry about avoiding temptation . as you grow older, it
will avoid you.
-- Winston Churchill

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 20:33:01 GMT, Dawnseeker <nospam_dawnseeker3 DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Memnoch formulated on Thursday :
>> On 4 Oct 2006 18:19:43 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Memnoch wrote:
>>>> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Memnoch wrote:
>>>>>> Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
>>>>> suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
>>>>> to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
>>>>> at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
>>>>> them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
>>>>> person you are.
>>>>
>>>> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
>>>> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
>>>> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave
>>>> the expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes
>>>> with the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff
>>>> from scratch.
>>>
>>> Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue about what goes into
>>> producing a game. It takes time and effort to add more content, and
>>> you don't want to pay for that content, it's that simple. You think
>>> you should get things for free without paying for the time and effort
>>> it takes to bring those things to you. You are selfish and almost
>>> criminally uninformed.
>>
>> I was referring to the levels, spells etc. The work is already done with the
>> first game. How can you not see that. I'm not referring to new tilesets,
>> campaigns, voice acting or other graphics that would need to be created from
>> scratch. How hard can it be for them to allow you to level to 40 instead of
>> 20?
>
>Why does it matter what the level cap is? Everything will be scaled to
>the cap anyways. Besides, playing low level PCs can be fun. I'm fairly
>sure epic+ levels will be coded in later expansions. It's all good.

I guess in reality it doesn't but to me it seems like such an easy thing to
implement I don't see why they wouldn't. The games been in development for
several years I would guess so they would have had the time.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 20:33:01 GMT, Dawnseeker <nospam_dawnseeker3.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Memnoch formulated on Thursday :
>> On 4 Oct 2006 18:19:43 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Memnoch wrote:
>>>> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Memnoch wrote:
>>>>>> Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
>>>>> suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
>>>>> to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
>>>>> at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
>>>>> them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
>>>>> person you are.
>>>>
>>>> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
>>>> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
>>>> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave
>>>> the expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes
>>>> with the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff
>>>> from scratch.
>>>
>>> Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue about what goes into
>>> producing a game. It takes time and effort to add more content, and
>>> you don't want to pay for that content, it's that simple. You think
>>> you should get things for free without paying for the time and effort
>>> it takes to bring those things to you. You are selfish and almost
>>> criminally uninformed.
>>
>> I was referring to the levels, spells etc. The work is already done with the
>> first game. How can you not see that. I'm not referring to new tilesets,
>> campaigns, voice acting or other graphics that would need to be created from
>> scratch. How hard can it be for them to allow you to level to 40 instead of
>> 20?
>
>Why does it matter what the level cap is? Everything will be scaled to
>the cap anyways. Besides, playing low level PCs can be fun. I'm fairly
>sure epic+ levels will be coded in later expansions. It's all good.

I guess in reality it doesn't but to me it seems like such an easy thing to
implement I don't see why they wouldn't. The games been in development for
several years I would guess so they would have had the time.

Memnoch wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 20:33:01 GMT, Dawnseeker <nospam_dawnseeker3.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Memnoch formulated on Thursday :
> >> On 4 Oct 2006 18:19:43 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Memnoch wrote:
> >>>> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Memnoch wrote:
> >>>>>> Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
> >>>>> suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
> >>>>> to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
> >>>>> at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
> >>>>> them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
> >>>>> person you are.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
> >>>> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
> >>>> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave
> >>>> the expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes
> >>>> with the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff
> >>>> from scratch.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue about what goes into
> >>> producing a game. It takes time and effort to add more content, and
> >>> you don't want to pay for that content, it's that simple. You think
> >>> you should get things for free without paying for the time and effort
> >>> it takes to bring those things to you. You are selfish and almost
> >>> criminally uninformed.
> >>
> >> I was referring to the levels, spells etc. The work is already done with the
> >> first game. How can you not see that. I'm not referring to new tilesets,
> >> campaigns, voice acting or other graphics that would need to be created from
> >> scratch. How hard can it be for them to allow you to level to 40 instead of
> >> 20?
> >
> >Why does it matter what the level cap is? Everything will be scaled to
> >the cap anyways. Besides, playing low level PCs can be fun. I'm fairly
> >sure epic+ levels will be coded in later expansions. It's all good.
>
> I guess in reality it doesn't but to me it seems like such an easy thing to
> implement I don't see why they wouldn't. The games been in development for
> several years I would guess so they would have had the time.

Given that the game has already been delayed twice (or is it three
times?) I think it is safe to say that extra time has not been
available.

Memnoch wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 20:33:01 GMT, Dawnseeker <nospam_dawnseeker3 DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Memnoch formulated on Thursday :
> >> On 4 Oct 2006 18:19:43 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Memnoch wrote:
> >>>> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Memnoch wrote:
> >>>>>> Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
> >>>>> suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
> >>>>> to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
> >>>>> at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
> >>>>> them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
> >>>>> person you are.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
> >>>> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
> >>>> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave
> >>>> the expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes
> >>>> with the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff
> >>>> from scratch.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue about what goes into
> >>> producing a game. It takes time and effort to add more content, and
> >>> you don't want to pay for that content, it's that simple. You think
> >>> you should get things for free without paying for the time and effort
> >>> it takes to bring those things to you. You are selfish and almost
> >>> criminally uninformed.
> >>
> >> I was referring to the levels, spells etc. The work is already done with the
> >> first game. How can you not see that. I'm not referring to new tilesets,
> >> campaigns, voice acting or other graphics that would need to be created from
> >> scratch. How hard can it be for them to allow you to level to 40 instead of
> >> 20?
> >
> >Why does it matter what the level cap is? Everything will be scaled to
> >the cap anyways. Besides, playing low level PCs can be fun. I'm fairly
> >sure epic+ levels will be coded in later expansions. It's all good.
>
> I guess in reality it doesn't but to me it seems like such an easy thing to
> implement I don't see why they wouldn't. The games been in development for
> several years I would guess so they would have had the time.

Given that the game has already been delayed twice (or is it three
times?) I think it is safe to say that extra time has not been
available.

Memnoch wrote:

> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Memnoch wrote:
>>
>>>Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
>>
>>So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
>>suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
>>to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
>>at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
>>them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
>>person you are.
>
>
> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave the
> expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes with
> the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff from
> scratch.

How are those features "easy to implement" or "already there"? They
aren't using the bioware engine, they're building the whole thing again
from scratch. And bioware didn't build the original NWN without
something "already there"; D&D 3.0 already existed, they "only" had to
code it in.

That said, your idea that expansion packs should be new campaigns or
extentions of the original game suggests a lack of understanding of the
original NWN. The campaigns included in NWN, SOU, and HOTU were not
really all that great, and certainly weren't the principle selling point
for most players. It was the engine upgrades, the additions of new
classes and levels and so on.

If they code all that stuff in from the get go (assuming they can
somehow wave a magic wand and "just code it in" without having to charge
two arms and a leg, and without making us wait till 2008 for release)
then what they are reduced to releasing are the equivalent of the
Kingmaker expansion; some modules that are really no better than the
hundreds of free ones that fans have made.

Lance

Memnoch wrote:

> On 3 Oct 2006 11:55:01 -0700, "Alex Mars" <Soulclaw DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Memnoch wrote:
>>
>>>Sorry, but if it comes down to money then it is greed.
>>
>>So what you are saying is that you expect them to produce the game and
>>suffer a financial loss just so you can play it? I suppose you expect
>>to buy a house and have the builder throw in an extra couple of rooms
>>at his own expense for you as well, or for you to buy a car and for
>>them to give you a bigger engine than you paid for? What a selfish
>>person you are.
>
>
> No, you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is they shouldn't
> deliberately hold back easy to implement features such as Epic levels. The
> skills/spells/abilities are already there, they just need coding in. Leave the
> expansion packs to be new campaigns or extensions of the one that comes with
> the original game. It's not like they have to come up with that stuff from
> scratch.

How are those features "easy to implement" or "already there"? They
aren't using the bioware engine, they're building the whole thing again
from scratch. And bioware didn't build the original NWN without
something "already there"; D&D 3.0 already existed, they "only" had to
code it in.

That said, your idea that expansion packs should be new campaigns or
extentions of the original game suggests a lack of understanding of the
original NWN. The campaigns included in NWN, SOU, and HOTU were not
really all that great, and certainly weren't the principle selling point
for most players. It was the engine upgrades, the additions of new
classes and levels and so on.

If they code all that stuff in from the get go (assuming they can
somehow wave a magic wand and "just code it in" without having to charge
two arms and a leg, and without making us wait till 2008 for release)
then what they are reduced to releasing are the equivalent of the
Kingmaker expansion; some modules that are really no better than the
hundreds of free ones that fans have made.

Lance

On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 12:11:06 GMT, Memnoch
<memnoch.TakeThisOut@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote:

>>Given that the game has already been delayed twice (or is it three
>>times?) I think it is safe to say that extra time has not been
>>available.
>
>I can't help it if they aren't very good at their job!

Actually, it's more likely the managers tried to impose an
unreasonable schedule. That's one of the biggest causes of software
delays.

The programmer says 6 months. The manager says do it in 3. Thus you
get a project that ships 3 months late. (Or, often, even more, as the
managers actually slow things down by keeping trying to micromanage.)

On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 12:11:06 GMT, Memnoch
<memnoch DeleteThis @nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote:

>>Given that the game has already been delayed twice (or is it three
>>times?) I think it is safe to say that extra time has not been
>>available.
>
>I can't help it if they aren't very good at their job!

Actually, it's more likely the managers tried to impose an
unreasonable schedule. That's one of the biggest causes of software
delays.

The programmer says 6 months. The manager says do it in 3. Thus you
get a project that ships 3 months late. (Or, often, even more, as the
managers actually slow things down by keeping trying to micromanage.)